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Thom + Nigel speak out on Israel. Shit hits big fan.

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i think it's easy for us to judge them from our vantage point.

 

 

and maybe a little hypocritical as well.

 

 

i don't think anyone is giving them enough credit really, i'd imagine they really thought this out and chose to do this despite knowing it'd cause a stir.

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Fully thinking something through doesn't make you immune from criticism. And I'm saying that without being firmly entrenched on either side of this argument. In this specific space of a fan forum, everyone has the right to criticise them. The BDS public/private approach thing is something else but right here there's no reason not to say if you think they're right/wrong/very fucking wrong. I get the whole 'don't make out we're uninformed' thing but I don't think that's really the issue here.

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so i support BDS, and I have a theory on one reason why they're adamant about playing Israel and won't denounce the apartheid- basically, I think they've kind of decided to be cautious about international politics because they're kind of shut out of China because of the Tibetan freedom thing.

 

I think, and this is just my theory, and even if true only a partial explanation, that somewhere along the way they realized that the Tibetan freedom concert did jack shit to advance human rights in Tibet, and only resulted in their being unable to perform in China for a while, and at this point are likely unwilling to do so even if able because of the hypocritical look.

 

In 2011 they launched their presence on China's social media, and although they probably still wouldn't tour there, it's probably not a coincidence that they've quietly dropped the Tibet thing, and most political advocacy aside from environmentalism.

 

so with Israel, it's widely known that they extensively vet all non Jewish visitors, with extended questioning about people's political stances being common protocol at their airports- if they spoke out against the apartheid and occupation they would probably be barred from Israel the way Roger Waters presumably is, and as far as I can tell the only thing they've openly said about the political situation there is that is that Netanyahu is a divisive figure, basically comparing BDS to him, which again, is not a nice look for people singing songs on the site of a forcibly displaced Palestinian village, but again, these guys aren't diplomats or academics.

 

most political advocacy by pop groups is dignified impotence at best or incredibly idiotic like Bono wearing an Au Sang Su Kyii t shirt at worst- a decade later the person that U2 popularized in their music videos presides over a society that's ethnically cleansing parts of its population and she does nothing about it.

 

with all that being said, there's no justifying playing in Israel and continuing to do so- which I feel sends a stronger message, intentional or not, than having performed there in the past and not returning.

 

I don't feel like it's a "punishment" to Israeli fans to be "deprived" of Radiohead shows when Radiohead has never once played in China, Russia, India, or anywhere in the third world aside from Mexico and Brazil. Israeli fans aren't prevented from traveling to other countries to see Radiohead shows.

 

Palestinian fans don't have that option.

 

I'd be interested to hear if they also think sanctions against Vladimir Putin's government are divisive because they affect ordinary Russians- and if therefore the world should accept and legitimize things like colonialism, military oppression and apartheid.

 

All in all, it's not something I want to hold against the band, and I don't blame them as human beings any more than I blame average Israelis for the actions of their government. I'm also sure that the fact that one of the members has Israeli family complicates the issue for them to a great extent.

 

But, regardless, I am disgusted and disappointed, not with the band, but with the whole situation, to the extent that I find it hard to listen to their music with the same unrestrained sense of joy and admiration that I had for 12 years, from the age of 18 to 30.

 

I basically don't listen to them at all anymore. I still want to, but it just doesn't feel the same.

 

Also, I feel like I listened to them so much 9h a daily basis over the years that not listening to them is basically doing myself a favor.\\

 

in conclusion, fuck apartheid.

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I feel like too much weight was added behind this idea that one our greatest living band of our generation is out there supporting apartheid or some shit just because they happened to be one our greatest living band of this generation.

 

Same shit would have applied to The Beatles should they have to go play somewhere where the political climate of that country was in a toss up.

 

Radiohead playing in Israel is not the same as Radiohead playing in front of a crowd of Hitler and his armies.  I believe Radiohead are playing for their fans that just happens to live inside a country where there are political turmoils.

 

I wouldn't want to be have to deal with being punished for living inside a country where our political leaders can't get this shit together or that there long running issues between borders. If there is hope, I would take it.

 

Imagine if bands outside of the U.S. refuse to play here because of Trump.   It's asinine.

When the situation in the US deteriorates to the level that it is in Israel, it would be entirely appropriate to boycott the country.

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that's pretty extreme to not listen to them anymore.

 

once you go down that route, where do you draw the line?

 

we're all typing on computers with parts from china.    should we stop using these computers?

 

where were your clothes made?  good chance they came from a sweatshop.

drink coffee?   is it fair-trade?

 

the list goes on and on.

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that's pretty extreme to not listen to them anymore.

 

once you go down that route, where do you draw the line?

 

we're all typing on computers with parts from china. should we stop using these computers?

 

where were your clothes made? good chance they came from a sweatshop.

drink coffee? is it fair-trade?

 

the list goes on and on.

That was my point earlier.

 

I'm curious why people are drawing a line in the sand with a concert.

 

Eightfiftytwo brings up an interesting point about Tibet, though.

 

Full disclosure - I am Jewish and have family in Israel. So I should probably just stay clear of this discussion.

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that's pretty extreme to not listen to them anymore.

 

once you go down that route, where do you draw the line?

 

we're all typing on computers with parts from china. should we stop using these computers?

 

where were your clothes made? good chance they came from a sweatshop.

drink coffee? is it fair-trade?

 

the list goes on and on.

all of these things you list are qualitatively different situations to the point where it doesn't make sense to compare them.

 

this is about a group of people you admire doing something i find detestable i.e. scabbing and undermining a protest movement. it's about a certain group of people making the wrong choice in a very concrete fashion.

 

all of the other examples have to do with the fucked up workings of the global economy -- vast, complex, abstract and basically impossible to avoid. crossing a picket line is v easy to avoid for a bunch of millionaire superstars otoh

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That was my point earlier.

 

I'm curious why people are drawing a line in the sand with a concert.

 

Eightfiftytwo brings up an interesting point about Tibet, though.

 

Full disclosure - I am Jewish and have family in Israel. So I should probably just stay clear of this discussion.

 

 

don't be ridiculous.

 

you should absolutely participate in the discussion if you have something to say.  Being Jewish doesn't disqualify you, that's fucking absurd.

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all of these things you list are qualitatively different situations to the point where it doesn't make sense to compare them.

 

this is about a group of people you admire doing something i find detestable i.e. scabbing and undermining a protest movement. it's about a certain group of people making the wrong choice in a very concrete fashion.

 

all of the other examples have to do with the fucked up workings of the global economy -- vast, complex, abstract and basically impossible to avoid. crossing a picket line is v easy to avoid for a bunch of millionaire superstars otoh

 

the israeli-palestinian conflict is incredibly complex as well.

it's why it's still happening after all these decades.

 

and by the way, i could make your same argument-  you drinking coffee that isn't fair trade is detestable.  or wearing Nike shoes and sweatshop brands.  

or having a jewelry with blood diamonds.  those are NOT  impossible to avoid.

 

as someone mentioned earlier it's odd that THIS is where people wanna draw the line.

and that's what i find hypocritical. 

 

Radiohead are an easy target and there are FAR more things to be outraged about these days rather than a fucking concert.

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and by the way, i could make your same argument-  you drinking coffee that isn't fair trade is detestable.  or wearing Nike shoes and sweatshop brands.  

or having a jewelry with blood diamonds.  those are NOT  impossible to avoid.

 

you could make that argument only because of your smooth brain lmao. .  everything in capitalism is produced unethically, so no, it literally is impossible unless you were to resign your life in the woods.  taking a stand against 2017 settler colonialism is not remotely comparable to tackling the very fabric of modern human society

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the israeli-palestinian conflict is incredibly complex as well.

it's why it's still happening after all these decades.

 

and by the way, i could make your same argument- you drinking coffee that isn't fair trade is detestable. or wearing Nike shoes and sweatshop brands.

or having a jewelry with blood diamonds. those are NOT impossible to avoid.

 

as someone mentioned earlier it's odd that THIS is where people wanna draw the line.

and that's what i find hypocritical.

 

Radiohead are an easy target and there are FAR more things to be outraged about these days rather than a fucking concert.

it's not that morally complex, really. unless you're really into racist violence.

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"everything in capitalism is produced unethically" lol are you fucking serious?

 

 

definitely one of the dumber things i've read in this stupid thread.

maybe it's time this thread dies.

hahaha dude

 

it's the truth. under a fundamentally exploitative system, products of that system will be unethical. does it offend your nuanced, ethical consumption sensibilities?

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that's pretty extreme to not listen to them anymore.

 

once you go down that route, where do you draw the line?

 

we're all typing on computers with parts from china. should we stop using these computers?

 

where were your clothes made? good chance they came from a sweatshop.

drink coffee? is it fair-trade?

 

the list goes on and on.

It's not a philosophical or political decision not to listen to them anymore, but a personal emotional one for me.

 

It's not entirely about the Israel thing, it's also that 12 years is a long time to listen to the same 5 albums, especially if it's keeping me from engaging as deeply with other music.

 

Also, I feel super uncomfortable about the tragedy surrounding last year's album, and I don't think that emotional energy is something I want to feel.

 

My post was mainly my personal feelings- the only objective point I was making was that Tibet advocacy only resulted in less of the population of China listening to Radiohead. And if they spoke out aha windy apartheid they'd be banned from Israel, so the perceived double standard with Tibet may actually be the reason why they don't want to put themselves in a situation where governments can come between them and their fans.

 

Apartheid still sucks, and so does their decision to play in Israel, though its inappropriate and unhelpful to harangue them any further and it certainly bears mentioning that its more than a little odd that this came up in 2017 and not 2001.

 

Also, speaking of things that suck, I tried listening to Roger Waters' album and the first track sounded too much like David Brent for me to continue.

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"everything in capitalism is produced unethically" lol are you fucking serious?

 

 

definitely one of the dumber things i've read in this stupid thread.

maybe it's time this thread dies.

loooool so you've spent this entire thread whatabouisming about ethical consuming without the slighted clue about how the system underpins exploitation that leads to these examples

 

yeah I feel dumber for even having read your posts now

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"everything in capitalism is produced unethically"   lol are you fucking serious?

 

 

definitely one of the dumber things i've read in this stupid thread.

 

I guess this speaks to the level of your overall intelligence colonW.PNG

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It's not a philosophical or political decision not to listen to them anymore, but a personal emotional one for me.

 

It's not entirely about the Israel thing, it's also that 12 years is a long time to listen to the same 5 albums, especially if it's keeping me from engaging as deeply with other music.

 

Also, I feel super uncomfortable about the tragedy surrounding last year's album, and I don't think that emotional energy is something I want to feel.

 

My post was mainly my personal feelings- the only objective point I was making was that Tibet advocacy only resulted in less of the population of China listening to Radiohead. And if they spoke out aha windy apartheid they'd be banned from Israel, so the perceived double standard with Tibet may actually be the reason why they don't want to put themselves in a situation where governments can come between them and their fans.

 

Apartheid still sucks, and so does their decision to play in Israel, though its inappropriate and unhelpful to harangue them any further and it certainly bears mentioning that its more than a little odd that this came up in 2017 and not 2001.

 

Also, speaking of things that suck, I tried listening to Roger Waters' album and the first track sounded too much like David Brent for me to continue.

 

 

fair enough.

 

 

i think another reason they may be playing Israel is because that's where Creep really blew up and i think they may feel a certain type of gratitude towards them.

and yes, Radiohead have played Israel before so i don't know what's with this late-to-the-game outrage.

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hahaha dude

 

it's the truth. under a fundamentally exploitative system, products of that system will be unethical. does it offend your nuanced, ethical consumption sensibilities?

 

 

lol nah not offended.

 

just kind of wow'd by the rigid, black and white thinking but ok.

you're painting with a broad fucking brush.

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